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I understand that the rules discussion is currently taking place, and I've heard some rumors about eliminating the :Protest" process. This iosssue has been discussed at various rules meetings since 1995, and has alwaysbeen defeated. Very Happy

The "Protest" process has always been in the "Local Club" since it's inception in 1965. It's the onnly avenue that the Racer has to have a chance to vindicate an incorreect call. Sure there has always been the option to "Take it to the Board". This option means that the ""Wronged" individual must take time to go to the meeting and wait untill his issue is borught up from the agenda. This can be as long as three to four weeks. To most of us the "wronged" person has, either issues with other drivers, and calls, or lack of calls, by the officials in the turns.

The protest process we currently have aallows for civil discussion from those involved, as well as those corner wotrkers, and posibily the Race Director. Been there. Done that. Many tines during the discussion it's obvious that a "Racing Incident" was misinterpreted. Sure these that a little time, but it's time well spent IMHO.

If this process is eliminated, I fear that more issues will "be solved on the track" than has been the case in the past. This is not good, for karting, or the participants. No one wants to be at a plcae where there's going to be a brawl. I know I don't.

Got an opinion? Lets hear it!

_________________
Jean Stafford

"Never argue with an idiot. They will wear you down to thier level, then beat you with experience."
"Nothing is foolproof, for a sufficiently gifted fool."

I think the ability to protest a call should remain. I think some common sense should be applied before allow a formal protest to reach the committee on race day, though. For example, if someone files a protest about how a race started, exactly what good does that do? They aren't going to re-run that one class. They aren't going to obviate the race results and screw everyone over. Only "Assessed Penalties" should be allowed to be protested to a committee. Everything else should be limited to a formal complaint to the Race Director. We have had people file a protest because of a non-called penalty. Why? With no one but the driver to attest that it happened, a retro-active penalty isn't going to be assessed.

Last edited by ChadW on Thu Sep 15, 2011 2:00 pm; edited 1 time in total

Chad:
The portest process is spelled out in section 1002 of the "Red book" Forms are to be filled out by the Racer, or his/her parent/gaurdian, and the protest MUST come from the same class.

While I agree with most of your response, I think protests of starts of races should be allowed, but common sense says they aren't going to be acted on at the race. Thsy do, attest to driver feelings about starts in generaal. These chould be passed on to the Race Director, and Flagman for future use. Continuing protests about such matters should aleert the BoD that there is a problem.

Further, protests filled of things such as this, should be deffered to the next Board meeting, and the results stand as raced. I don't believe that ahyone fully expects the race to be ran over!! Also, action on these protests should be a part of the minutes, so everyone knows the results, and what is expected in the future. I think I have a right as a member of this organization to know wehat iis going on so I can know how to respond in various instances.

The form that is used requires the racer to state the infraction of rules as the rules are stated in the "Red book". There is a "Blocking" rule Section 503, thatt is way too subjective, as it expects someone on the sidline to determine contace in,"..other than an inadverent manner." That's jist not possible. Only the driver behind knows for sure, and he ain't talking. Sure you can suspect, but unless there's continued abuse, it's difficult.

That said, that is what you're asking your corner workers to do. Do they have any guidlines? What would they be?

Pick up the rule book. There are 62 pages, and only 17 or 18 relate to track conduct., the rest are about processes, sponsorships, classes other than WKA, schedule, configurations and maps. In addition there are copied rules from the WKA manual, some incorrectly. These sometimes make the thing confusing.

_________________
Jean Stafford

"Never argue with an idiot. They will wear you down to thier level, then beat you with experience."
"Nothing is foolproof, for a sufficiently gifted fool."

Did you know, if you spell book with a capital b, it looks like this Book !

_________________
Jean Stafford

"Never argue with an idiot. They will wear you down to thier level, then beat you with experience."
"Nothing is foolproof, for a sufficiently gifted fool."

Last edited by Jean Stafford on Tue Sep 20, 2011 3:21 pm; edited 1 time in total

book
Book

Interesting. I will have to go into the autoreplace and see if John has set up something as a joke.

EDIT:
Fixed. The smiley code was wrong.

Seemed pretty much a Kangaroo Court to me with little chance of any justice, just a procedure to back the "brother" corner worker. Than had to run the gauntlet with a female corner worker telling me I should try and work a corner sometime. I thought that was what we paid our entry fee for. Smile

The evidence was plain to see but they were not interested, only to hurry up the process so as to leave.

I will post a video of the "Crime" and let you be the judge. I have a good on board camera shot, with the guys that called the penalty with his back to the incident.

Than to make matters worse an Engine builder tells his customer that I told my daughter to take his customer out. Such a lie Sad

Business must really be bad to resort to tactics like that Evil or Very Mad

I will try to take the high road on that, but no gaurantees. I am pretty pissed about that. Twisted Evil

Pat

_________________
pat slattery

VOICE OF REASON

IF IT'S GOING TO BE, IT IS UP TO ME

ARROW KARTS
WOLTJER ENGINES
MYCHRON GAUGES
L & T CLUTCHES

From your post is ssonds like you have a personl axe to grind Pat.

Are you saying, since it does no good we should get rid of the process??

To answer you question, yes, business is bad. Perssonally, for me it's not THAt bad. I'm happy to say I've never said anything so disrespectful in my 52 years in Karting. Ever! If someone actually said that they should be ... Well I just don't know of a suitable punishment.

Waiting on the video!

_________________
Jean Stafford

"Never argue with an idiot. They will wear you down to thier level, then beat you with experience."
"Nothing is foolproof, for a sufficiently gifted fool."

Sorry jean, was not referring toward you, thought you were out of the engine building game

_________________
pat slattery

VOICE OF REASON

IF IT'S GOING TO BE, IT IS UP TO ME

ARROW KARTS
WOLTJER ENGINES
MYCHRON GAUGES
L & T CLUTCHES

Sorry jean, was not referring toward you, thought you were out of the engine building game

_________________
pat slattery

VOICE OF REASON

IF IT'S GOING TO BE, IT IS UP TO ME

ARROW KARTS
WOLTJER ENGINES
MYCHRON GAUGES
L & T CLUTCHES

Pat, try and imagine the position the corner workers are put in. No one wants us to call any penalties, yet, when they themselves get hit, it's all, "WHY DIDN'T YOU SEE THAT?! ARE YOU BLIND?!"

For any call made, at least two people saw it. Ted is always walking around. Mr. Wagar watches from the flag tower. Then you have the corner worker. Down by turn 3 to 7, there upwards to 5 people to see what happened. Down my way at turn 1-2, it is usually just 2 of us.

Pat, you really should try working the corners sometime, you might find it educational.

So, where is the video that shows the corner worker not looking? Does it show the other eyes on the track that made the call?

Chad,

Corner workers shouldn't be calling penalties, they should be calling infractions to rules, again, in their opinion. It is a judgement call. The Race Director has "complete control" of any penalties issued.

The workers we presently have are dilligent, and attentive. Something that has been lacking in the past. I have seen corner workers with their back to the action in turn one, but not recently.

Since action is taking place all over the track, it's unreasonable to expect all of the people you mentioned, to have actually wittnessed an incident. They may be watching another group.

When I worked as a corner worker in the past, I tried to watch to see if the "offender" was actually on the brake when contact occured. It's one thing to make contact, it's another to intentionally make contact. They who work the corners have a tough job. hey should determine whether the contact is intentional. Not an easy task. Today I can't see well enough to make that call with confidence. Getting old I guess.

_________________
Jean Stafford

"Never argue with an idiot. They will wear you down to thier level, then beat you with experience."
"Nothing is foolproof, for a sufficiently gifted fool."

Pat,

Double hitting again???

I am out of the business as yyou thought. I wtrill build for Julie, and a couple of friends, (Yes I have friends.) I have contace with others in the business, and all have told me of a 30-50% drop from two years a go. Knowing the markup, or margin for profit, it's difficult if not impossible to have a Kart Related Business tht will support a family, just by selling Karts and parts. I still sell Birel Karts, and Komet engines, Tomar Clutches, and some support items like carb kits, but I haven't sold a Kart in two years, new that is. I do have a few things tht most people don't have access to, like a flat level table big enough to put a Kart on, and the tools to measure accurately when it's straight and true. I'll help anyone who asks.

Tires are another issue all together. If I buy Dunlops, I can make $2.00 a tire, but i have to stock 40+ tires cdosting around $2400, to make $80. Not too good a return on investment. Take into account the instability of the tire market locally, it just isn't feasibble, so I don't

My "Business" is loafing. I'm retired. The Shop is Jeff's Business" but, it's a machine shop, not a Kart Shop, although to look at it inside, you'd think differently. We do work for several Karting providers, and still have a good idea what's happening in the market, both here and country-wide. His business keeps about a dozen workers employed full time, and while down, it's still what we do best, make things.

_________________
Jean Stafford

"Never argue with an idiot. They will wear you down to thier level, then beat you with experience."
"Nothing is foolproof, for a sufficiently gifted fool."

I am at the scca runoffs this week and can't post any videos at this time, hope that we can make sundays race

_________________
pat slattery

VOICE OF REASON

IF IT'S GOING TO BE, IT IS UP TO ME

ARROW KARTS
WOLTJER ENGINES
MYCHRON GAUGES
L & T CLUTCHES

Jean Stafford wrote:

When I worked as a corner worker in the past, I tried to watch to see if the "offender" was actually on the brake when contact occured. It's one thing to make contact, it's another to intentionally make contact. They who work the corners have a tough job. hey should determine whether the contact is intentional. Not an easy task. Today I can't see well enough to make that call with confidence. Getting old I guess.

Jean,

If you are in a kart and on the receiving end of a hit and the other guy is penalized, does it matter to you if they did it on purpose or not? Probably not. Contact is contact, intentional or not, it should be penalized if serious enough. The decision for the cornerworker is; Did the contact cause a negative impact on someone's position worthy of a penalty.

All,

I am in favor of the Protest Committee and the process in place, but don't lump the written process together with the committee. The process is only as good as the people on the committee allow it to be. It may be working perfectly, I don't know, I am not involved with the Protest Committee although I did speak in support of keeping it at last months board meeting.

Doug,

I am posting this for the benefit(?) of all. We had this discussion at he track yesterday, but here goes.

I understand what you're saying, but I disagree with the idea of penalizing a person based on whether they lost positions or not. Whether we like it or not, racing is a contact sport, always has been, always will be. You can't race close and not get into incidents. If you use the philosophy that if someone loses position, as a result of another's faulire to control their vhicle, then you will have to penalize the possible front runner if they force the guy behind to lose position. Has happened to us already, and it isn't right. How can you penalize a front running couple of karts. After all they are fighting for the lead. If they inadveertenly force the third place person to go off the track, they shouldn'tr be penalized for this.

When we had, what I call good racing, hte flagman was GOD. The corner workers were knowledgeable and had black flags, and they all used them when necessaery. No protests because everyone respected the man who was swinging them. You had a chance to give your opinion to him, but you usually lost. He also had "no dogs in the hunt" Today we have rules about how we should drive down the track. (No changing lanes but once), Kinda hard to press someone if you can't change lanes. "Or, how about protecting your lead"? No one has ever done that. Right? When you are runnig behind someone you should be able to use every trick in the book, short of just knocking someone out of the way, to intimidate the opponent, and force him to make a mistake. Otherwise it ain't racing, it';s follow the leader. By the way, if you knock someone odd the track, you should get the black flag, no questions asked. IMHO!

I am glad you're for the protest process. It's the only way the racers can get any redress from the track officials. Keep up the good work Doug. (Before the "Local CLub" became a "Track owner" they were the avenue to redress bad calls from the track officials. Today, they are the officials, and if we don't keep the protest precedure, we'll lose Karters worse then we already have. More about hais in another thread.

_________________
Jean Stafford

"Never argue with an idiot. They will wear you down to thier level, then beat you with experience."
"Nothing is foolproof, for a sufficiently gifted fool."